Episode 60: Talking about "The Rules of The Game for Women in Business" with Catherine Lang-Cline

Your Financial Maven® Podcast is excited to have reached 60 episodes!!! Join me as I chat with Catherine Lang-Cline about "The Rules of the Game for Women in Business." We had an exciting and thought provoking conversation about what women need to know when they are running their own business or working in the corporate business setting.  You can check out more about Catherine Lang-Cline here: https://catherinelangcline.com/.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Your Financial Maven, where we talk all about understanding your money. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Samantha Mitman-Besnoff, certified public accountant. I've been in the accounting field for over 30 years, and I absolutely love sharing my knowledge all about your financial empowerment. Enjoy the podcast. Welcome to the latest episode of Your Financial Maven. I'm Samantha Besnough, and I'm so excited to have my guest on today, Katherine Lang Klein. We are going to have a fun discussion, a very vibrant discussion about helping women in leadership roles and dealing with business and things like that. Catherine is an award-winning CEO. You built your business. You, I guess, did your business for 20 years. You decided, you know what, I'm going to step away, I'm going to sell it, and moved on. But you didn't move out of the picture. You kind of grew in your journey, and we're going to talk about that today. You actually wrote a book called The Rules of the Game for Women in Business. It's a very straight shooting guide for women who are ready to stop playing small and learn the real rules and start winning. So I'm really excited to talk about that and talk about your journey. Like I said, you are award-winning. You had an award called the Most Admired CEO. I love that. I absolutely love that. And you really learned how the game worked running your business and being that CEO and being able with your energy and your excitement to share that with us today here on your financial Maven. So, Catherine, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Thank you so much, and thank you for the introduction. I think we've covered everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yes. I tried, you know, I didn't want to read the whole thing, but I wanted to make sure I grasped, you know, the important parts. Did a perfect job.

unknown 1:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

So before I get started talking about your book and about your journey, and I ask all my guests this what is money?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Oh, money is freedom. I mean, I think a lot of people think it's it's happiness, but it, you know, I don't think that's necessarily true because you can have a lot of money and be miserable, but it does provide freedom of a lot of things. You know, it's freedom from, you know, whether or not you're gonna pay your bills and buy your groceries and put your kids through school and things like that. So that that is my one word.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

I love it. And and you're right, you know, I know personally of experiences with family members, extended family members who have had a lot of money and a lot of success, and they still weren't happy. There were still things that just it wasn't that they didn't enjoy having the money, right? They had comfortableness, but it led to other things. So I think having that idea of freedom is great and understanding money. And I just on a side note, in case anybody sees, I had surgery a few days ago. So if they see the hand come by, you guys can ignore it. But just so you know, dealing with something I actually went from November all the way through tax season and I told the doctor, because I knew I wouldn't be able to really use my hand for two weeks. I said we're doing it after tax season. All right. Oh, we waited. Yes, had that done. So I want to talk about your book, the rules of the game for women in business, and what inspired you to write this book and kind of some of the rules and what you've learned, not only while you're writing the book, but you do go out and do speaking engagements, you you, you know, share this knowledge. So I'd love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, it was a case of where in in the 20 years that I did have my business, I was also occasionally mentoring some people or advising minor coaching, if you will. And after I sold my business, some people were like, you know, I would love to sit with you and have some coffee, you know, maybe, and then people are saying, Well, you should be a coach, you should be a coach. Um, I did that for a very short period of time, but then I realized I was repeating myself a lot. Yeah. And then I thought there's things here that women need to know. And I'm very easy to meet after my journey. So I'm like, I can't just walk away from this. I have to write things down so now more women can see what I did, some of it hurdles that I came over. And the concept of the book really is you know, after being in business, I realized in order to get ahead, you have to play it a little bit like a game. You know, started business first, you know, that's nothing against them, that's just the way that it is. And they were able to write all the rules before we could enter the room. And women showed up on the scene thinking that we can be, you know, kind and helpful and nurturing, which are the definite strengths of women, but it's an entirely different game. The rules are completely different. And it's 100%. It's not a an us versus them thing. It's just different. And once I realized that and I started, you know, using language that they use, you know, posturing in ways that they would, interrupting when they would interrupt me, I realized, oh, oh, oh, this is the game and this is how I'm gonna play. And therefore, that helped me become a better team player for them. And they invited me to be on the team. You know, you I want you to have my leadership board or on my on my board in general, or I want you to help me with this thing. It was all because I was proving that I understood how to play the game and I was a good team player.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Love it. I love it. And and you're right, I mean, it's hard, right? We as women don't necessarily want to have to play that role, want to have to play that game because we might not agree with how they're going about that game. But both you and I, you know, growing up in an area or an era time frame, you know, when I started accounting, women worked really hard to get to where they were in, you know, public accounting, becoming partners, very few and far between when I started over 30 years ago. I was at a public accounting firm that had one woman partner in in the 30 partners of the firm. So she played the game because she got to where she was. But I think over time, I think it's great. I think, but how do you add that woman piece to it? You know, what are the what are the rules or the things that you help women still be women, right? And and believe in what they believe in, but help them get to that point where they can be leaders.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, I think for the most part, men do like women in the brew. I I think they obviously love their buddy system. We all like to hang around with people that are like us. Right. But when you meet the certain people that are they are different, but they somehow still click with you because like, oh, you get me. That's really kind of the key. It's like, you know, I understand what it's like to be a CEO when I'm talking to a male CEO because that that part is all the same. Right. We all deal with teams and we all deal with HR issues and we all deal with things like that. So if you just kind of explain, you know, work with that common knowledge and have the understanding that we're all there to win in some way. So while women may think some of the rules are, you know, maybe a little uncomfortable, if you have kind of in the back of your mind is, oh, he's playing to win. And his tactics might be a little bit different, but somehow we can all win together if we just do this instead of this, or nudge this over here. I think it's something that I'm maybe more comfortable with. Still the objective. I I think in the back of our minds as women, we'll all want everybody to win, you know, for the most part too. And they're playing for their team to win too, but their mindset's a little bit different. It's like, I want to be wealthy, I want to be president, I want to be, you know, the top of my game. That's always a little bit of their strategy or part of their playbook, if you will, where women like to lift up everybody, you know, and we're always the biggest check writers for donations, and we're always, you know, coaching people and helping others and elevating others. So I like to advise women for just a little bit, play for yourself. You know, plan when you have an overage, if you had a great year and it's profitable, hey, how about if you save some of that money versus versus how am I gonna distribute this among the team or what can what big check can I write to help somebody else? And that's all okay. But if you're not working or owning a business to eventually want to retire in a very comfortable manner, then you're not doing it right. And it's simple as that. Because I've run into so many women that either run into divorce or they close their business because they can't sell it.

unknown 8:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

And they didn't save anything, they didn't put anything into an IRA or anything. And they're stuck, you know, and they have to keep working in some capacity. But what I'm trying to preach is like you can take care of others too. But think about the how many more people you can take care of if you're super profitable too.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I mean, it's interesting. I did work in corporate accounting for a year. It was not my thing. I mean, I've done public, I've done nonprofit government, I'm on my own now. Corporate, I did for a year, and it was cutthroat. I mean, you're talking in the mid-1990s, and honestly, one of the other women I worked with, I found sometimes to be more cutthroat than some of the men. But I think now that I look back at it, she was, you know, early on ascribing to kind of what you're trying to say is it wasn't that she didn't care about me or other staff, but she was trying to focus on herself to establish herself. And it wasn't, she wasn't the reason I was like, I didn't like corporate, I just didn't like what I was doing. I was converting currency from foreign to US dollars. And I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was really using my accounting skills.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

But I did observe that and and it was so intriguing because we did have a female CFO at the time. And and also to see how, you know, she was very caring to her staff, but boy, she got her mindset on something. It was like, we've, you know, this is why I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Um I'm trying to erase that stigma of that being such a weird thing to behold. Yeah. Because I can do that all day long. You could have 10 guys, you know, doing that. You're like, oh, me's a good business person. Um does it, it's just like, oh, what's her problem?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

You know, and you and you bring that up. I was gonna ask this later on, but you you're bringing it up now about women trying to be heard in the conference room, you know, those opportunities at the table or and and they are viewed as being interrupted or overlooked, or maybe she's a bitch, right? Like she's coming in here, you know, bull in a china shop. But, you know, how do you help women to kind of change that narrative? That, yeah, they're they're coming in there because they have ideas and they want to be heard, but that that stigma of, oh, you know, she's she doesn't you know, she doesn't know what she's doing, or she's just so obnoxious that we don't want to hear from her. How do you work with your clients or tell women what they can do to kind of push that aside?

SPEAKER_01 10:16

There is a little bit of a strategy to that as well. And I like to compare it to when if you're watching maybe like a rugby game or soccer or uh basketball, and everybody's fighting for the ball. I mean, there's a guy who's dribbling, he's he thinks he's heading for the hoop, but some guy comes along and just snatches it away and he's heading the other direction and he's pissed. Yeah. And um, that's the same way that it is in the boardroom, too, or in a meeting where you're you're sailing what you think are gonna be, you know, putting up a great point and somebody steals the ball away. Your job is to try and get that ball back or maybe even maybe keep them from scoring. And because that was your idea to begin with. And again, all the guys are playing that way. But the women get offended, they get hurt, and they I think they start being seen as a bitch when they start getting really defensive about that. Right. And I will in some cases I'll just keep talking if somebody's talking over me or or wait till they take a breath and then I start talking. I'll start taking notes. So I'm like, you know, I'm gonna mention make sure I mention this when this guy stops talking. Right, right. And because I think we'd be the same way too. If someone addressed you with, oh my god, he interrupted me, how rude, you'd be like, What? But if you said something like, you know, like I I see where you're going with this, and I that's what I was trying to say, or um, I like that you carried that idea because now let's go back to or you're close to what I wanted to say. Just kind of keep kind of looping it back to yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Redirectoring, redirecting it, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Like, redirecting kind of where you're at thought, and it's not done in a form of panic. It's not super focused because they've already run. So you're like, okay, great, let's go back to this. And it's like, I know we went down this road, but I want to get back to my point, you know, and just make those notes so you don't forget or you don't get offended. Um, but it is it is just about that game. That is how they're all playing, and we have to do it the same way, and we cannot do it with any sort of anger or angst. Um, or or you just fold up your arms and just say, Well, there's not gonna let me talk today, you know, because guess what? They see you gave up, they see that you don't know how to play the game, they see that you're now willing to push your ideas forward. And the opposite can happen too, when you're you're too pushy with that. I like to start building the consensus up before you basically say exactly what you want to do. Yeah. And there's some cases too we have to kind of convince people this is the right answer by asking them questions. So there's a lot, like I said, I have a chapter on this on how to handle some of that, and I I dealt with it and I've I never felt offended or hurt, but I came kind of in with that idea because that's what I have always heard. Right. So I I would also tell people to kind of give it a little bit of breath to see if this room is exactly like you've heard about or if it's not. I've heard some women just make you say, you know what, I just like to sit back and observe, and then I'll contribute what I think I have something to say. I think you're already starting to discount yourself by putting yourself in the backseat and saying, you know, I'm gonna sit here on the bench until somebody decides to call on me, or if I see something, then I might say something.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

I mean, it's hard, right? You think you know for women, it can be hard, right? I consider myself introvert, extrovert. And and when I'm in social settings, especially networking, I've worked really hard to kind of, you know, guys just go up and and you know, shake your hand and say hi to you. And and and it's hard and it and it's very intimidating, but I've worked on that. And I think you're right, the the emotion, it's it's not to say you can't have emotion, but you have to learn how to take that as not personal and just have your passion, but you can't take that personal.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Because it isn't. It really, really isn't.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

It really isn't, and I agree with you, and it is hard, right? It is very hard, and I think women can do it and they should do it, you know, even if they're not in the corporate world.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

It's it's really the only way to kind of break through from one level to get to that higher level sort of thing, is to just, like I said, be in it and and look like you know what the heck you're doing. And some of that just comes in practice. And I have some of that in my book as well, where I talk about, you know, networking and and some things you can say when you get a little tongue-tied, or how you can be a little bit better, working a room when you know nobody's there. We've all had the pleasure, I think, if as a woman, um, to walk into a meeting and you're the only woman there. So, you know, what what do you say at that point? And just kind of as a little bit of a footnote, I go into a little bit deeper on this, but I always like to think of it a little more of how I act, maybe as at a party or something versus a meeting, because meetings seem so formal. But if you're if you walk into a party and you see people, you're like, hey, how you doing? You know, um, that changes everything, you know, versus I'd like to introduce myself and I am, you know, yes, bathroom, and I'm a CEO, you know. Um, just but just that kind of that change that internal messaging you have makes it just so much easier. And that and they usually reciprocate.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah, 100%. And and you're right, it is hard. It's it can be very intimidating when you're the only woman in the room, or even if you're not, and how men react, you know, I've had situations recently where I'm dealing with people in the accounting field who are younger than me, but from a leadership perspective, in their where they're working, they're higher than me. You know, they might be a partner or CEO. And I've had to deal with how they look down at me because I work for myself and I do accounting, I do tax, I do the financial education, the podcast, and I've had to like change that narrative with them to say, just because I'm not in public accounting doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I have 30 plus years of experience from a couple of these guys who just recently became partner and they're in their late 30s. Like, you know, I have a seat at this table, and it's how do you, like you said, react and get yourself in there to say, just because I might not be doing what you're doing doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

And honestly, to a certain degree, I think sometimes those people get a little bit jealous too because you are on your own doing it, they're kind of stuck to a desk, if you will. And um the one thing that, you know, because somebody had told me, and it was really, really helpful, is that um, well, there's a couple things. The first one is I I met somebody, I hand them a business card, and they say, Oh, this is when I first, first, first started my business. And it says something like I was a director of marketing. And he said, I thought you owned it. And I was like, Yeah, um, I do. And he goes, Well, then why doesn't it say president or owner? And I'm like, Oh. Because for me, when I was working in corporate, being a director was always my aim. And I saw, oh, I get to give myself the title of director, but I never thought about president or CEO. And then the next person who I ran into, um, I said, you know, I'm really nervous, pretty much like what you're saying. And they're like, Well, why are you nervous? You're the CEO of your own company. Yeah. And um, you're probably you're at the same level as them, if not higher. You said these people are higher, but you are a CEO of your own company. So if you come off with that attitude versus thinking that they're higher up in some way, or I'm I how do I talk to this person? It's like no, we're the same. There's always a person, you know, I'd always look for the CEOs in the room, you know, because I, you know, after he said that, okay, I'm a CEO, I gotta look for the CEOs in the room. And I tried it and, you know, it worked. They were like, oh, well, that's really cool. You know, and you started your own business. That's that's always said sometimes there's a little bit of jealousy too, because if they didn't start their own business, they were like, oh, that must be great just to, you know, be your own boss. Like, you know what? Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yes, I uh you know what? In almost almost 13 years, September will be 13 years on my own. And I agree with you. It's don't get me wrong, right? Owning your own business has its ups and downs.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

It always will. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

I do agree with you when I do talk to people, I'm like, yeah, I'm a CPA and I own my own business. Like I just really share that. And I do think that some people have some jealousy because they're like, wow, she's really doing this. And and, you know, it's that flexibility, that ability to do it. But it also means kind of still learning how to be a leader, right? I work for myself, there's no other staff. It's me, myself, and I. And so sometimes I feel like I'm in that void. So talking with you, I'm gonna actually check out your book because I think this is fabulous. And having these conversations, I think are important as women because just because you own your own business or you're doing something for yourself doesn't mean you should give up on learning how to lead and present yourself to people. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you've got to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Absolutely. And I would really encourage anybody who has, I mean, even if you're the sole person, this is one of the things that I did too, is like myself and one other person, I would always refer to it as the company, and it is us and that sort of thing. And that it wasn't, it didn't matter if I was a solopreneur or whatever, or just two people, just like my company does this, I'm the president of Portfolio Creative. That was my company. And I, you know, we do this, this, this, and this, and we can help you do this. And it was, you know, a little more of an attention getter than even, you know, saying, which I heard a lot, I have a small boutique company, or it's just me, or or things like that. Because if you want to especially go for the big fish, they're not gonna want the one person. Because if something happens to you, of course they're gonna help their stuff. But if you give some sort of illusion that there's this team behind you.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I I agree. There's that, you know, nervousness of succession planning and what do I do for my clients? And and those are things I've started to think about as I actually I'm trying to shift a bit from the whole tax and accounting. And I want to do more of the speaking and the workshops, and because I think financial education is important. Oh, I think and this, you know, it this to me being a leader and understanding that game is part of that too. Because you have to be able to, at some point, probably present yourself, let's say, to investors or getting yourself in front of that company to take them on as a client. And and I think it's so very valuable in that regard. Right, right. And that's why we're talking because I think this is you know what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

But we have to do with it, like where they have absolutely you know, no question that you can handle it because you are going up against some of the bigger, you know, bigger people out there. But what is it that makes you special? What make is it that makes your experience, you know, different than what theirs is? And you could say, I mean, for me, I started this company based on that I was in marketing for probably like about 15, 16 years. Wow. Both as a freelancer and working for a large corporation. So when I went to other people saying it, I could find talent for them, I knew exactly what they were looking for. And that's what made us different than any other staffing company. It's like you need to use that because we get you. And that's the message that you know everybody can have. If you are, you know, a chocolate maker, you just say, you know what, I love chocolate too. So I make chocolate for people that love chocolate. That's right. And automatically you're like, oh, well, I want to try your chocolate.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

You're like, oh, can I have some of that? I would definitely do that. So that kind of brings me to my next question about building your company, you know, that journey of what made you decide to go out on your own and kind of understanding that leadership and really things that while you're in the corporate world world working for others that maybe you didn't pick up on, you know, that that you've seen, you know, and yes, you were in your business for 20 years, you decided to sell it, step away, but that's not necessarily a failure or a bad thing either. It's kind of that journey. So I'd love to hear more about your journey from your business, the ground up and kind of where you went with it.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah, as you know, marketing is is always like a pretty volatile field to be in. Yeah. You know, you're first hired, last, you know, wait, last hired, first fired. And especially large corporations. So I freelance a lot. I work for a number of companies, a number of Fortune 500 companies, number a number of small ones. And especially the large companies, I got a lot of experience, a lot of education. There are some that I thought, like, you know, this is like better than a master's degree because I learned about spreadsheets. And as a marketing person, you know we drew pretty pictures and said cool lines. But to have that depth on someone else's dime, basically, they were, you know. I learned a lot. And because I was going back and forth, I wasn't really feeling like I was at home anywhere. Somebody came up proposed to me, you know, like have you ever thought about? And I was like, no, but you know what? Why not? Why not try it? We'll see what happens. I gave myself six months and we'll see if that works. And 20 years later, it was still working. Amazing. Amazing. And but it was, it was really about um it the timing just seemed to be really right. I I did not want to work for somebody else again. At least um well, yeah, especially now that you've had this company for so long, then it's like almost possible to go back.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

It it is. I tell my husband that all the time. He's like, you know, we talk, we have a kid still in college, and he's like, oh, maybe you should get, you know, go work for someone else. You don't have to deal with all this. I said, I can't do that. No, just I can't.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And I I want to just tell people there is something magical about going to so work for somebody else, and if the check just shows up in your account without any worry without 100%. Just not for me. That's why I said like a timing was right. I I felt like I was just kind of at a crossroads. You know, I just recently gotten divorced. Um I didn't have any children. So I could live lean and mean for a while until I could figure this out. And you know, that there's a whole thought process that goes behind behind that because when you do start a business, obviously your salary changes. So you I advise people that what's the least amount you could live on. And it's amazing what you can live on compared to what you make, because I was like, we're 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I I agree. I mean, I think people don't realize, you know, and and that's one of the things I talk about is if you know your money, if you know what you're bringing in and you know the expenses that you absolutely have to pay and go out the door, you'll have a better understanding of it. Yeah, right. So date your money once a month. Take the time to review it because, like you said, you'd be surprised. People could actually, while they're transitioning, if they choose to go out on their own, what they can and can't do.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, and that's a a great example too of you know what I tell people how to save as well. It's like, do you really need those Gucci shoes? Or what if you put it, what if you invested it? Even if it's a couple hundred bucks, you know, it it'll make a huge, huge, huge difference. Huge difference. Um, because for me, after my divorce, I really didn't have anything. I had to start over again at 35 and uh just was just trying to be just be so careful about always making sure I put something back in there because I I knew I would have to retire eventually. Um I can I'll move a little bit forward to like how I was able to kind of retire early by selling the business. But having grown it, having done all the things that I wanted to really kind of accomplish, and with that, it you know, there was a recession and there was a pandemic, and there was, you know, AI was now coming out. And I thought to myself, do I really want to go up a head-to-head with this AI thing in a marketing space? Or is it time to just do something else? Because for me, I have a BFA, I have an art degree, I was in marketing, and you know, and then now I was I was a staffing person. And I'm like, I think I would need to kind of go back to my roost a little bit. And it was seemed to be a good time to sell the business too, because that's a little bit of a worth mentioning as well. Is when you have a company like this, always build it to be sold. And that includes making sure that you're not the only one that's running it, that you have people to hand things off to, that there's some value in it. And as you know, businesses go up and down when it comes to pricing, so it was at a good point to sell. So we're like, let's just see what happens. The good news is, you know, we can sell it and then I will have enough money until my IRAs kick in. Or we don't, right? But I gotta come up with something else. But I thought it was at least worth a shot with that sort of timing. And we found a great company to merge with that our culture, and also to somebody who could help bridge that gap with the AI because they were more IT left brain thinkers than all the right brain thinkers. So since they're all starting to come become one, I think it worked out well in that regard. Yeah, so with that, I got to, like I said, I then I started, you know, saying, Oh, I just feel like I got something else to say. So I started mentoring some people. Then I was like, okay, wait a minute. Let me just write a book. And the book can live forever. And then if I want to retire, retire, then so be it.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, no, I love it. And and you're right, you know, uh, people with the way the economy is going right now, and you know, like my youngest is gonna be graduating within the next year from college, and he's trying to find a job in engineering, it's hard. And and my oldest, when he graduated two years ago, he had a hard time finding a job as well. I mean, he has a job, he's he's doing well now, but it it is very hard in these times of trying to figure out, you know, what to do. And AI, of course, is this whole big, big thing. But I think being able to have the leadership skills, being able to, whether you work for somebody and have those leadership skills or you're on your own, I think on some level, no matter whether there's AI or technology, you still have to be able to sell your product or sell who you are, your vision or your knowledge. Because on some level, I don't think AI is ever going to 100% take over everything. I just I just don't see that. Doesn't mean it won't, but I don't I don't see that because you still need that human connection. And you still need to have the ideas and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yes. And I mean, and who's to say that that maybe it doesn't start learning that. But the way that it kind of is panning out is that it is fantastic for doing a lot of these mundane sort of things, repetition sort of things. Yes, and that and that initially, you know, hits the heart of like anybody who has a a a calling um company, like you do cold calls, or certain things that don't necessarily involve ideas and and leadership and things like that. Because essentially the way that it is set up right now is it picks up things that have already been done. So if you want anything new and innovative, it's not gonna be there. And you know, snapping new ideas, I come up with pretty good ideas. I mean, I like to help it, it helps me kind of sort my thoughts sometimes because I can be all over the map when it comes to my ideas. Like, can you just like put this in bullet points so I even understand myself? And it'll do that for me. But um, as far as what the idea is, I mean, that can always be all yours. And the other thing I want to mention when I was talking to some of the people that we worked with when I had the company with AI, it reminds me a lot of when computers and especially the Macintosh took over. Yes. And everybody freaking freaked out. And granted, a lot of people lost their jobs because those were no longer needed. However, if you knew how to use it, you were an asset. So if anything, that's worth a mention on any resume. If you have some knowledge, even a little bit of understanding of it, to say I understand or I've used AI for that's gonna be a standout for people.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, I I agree. I think in the accounting world, there they are, there is some freak out about the whole AI and the processes and what are you know kids coming out of college going to be able to do. And it's interesting because when I learned accounting, a lot of it was all manual. It was all doing it by hand, pen and paper. And even into like the 2000s, early 2000s, it was still a lot of that. And I think from some level, you learn better that way. When you're writing things down and you learn better. So when I do talk to clients and I'm working with people, I'll still draw T accounts to explain how transactions go on both sides. I will still kind of sit there and handwrite. And so when I talk to even college kids and we talk about that, some other professors are doing that. They're utilizing AI and they're utilizing technology, but they're also saying, but this is how we started and this is where we're going. And and how do you make that difference? And I think a lot of it also is it does change what you do in the sense of you can be a leader, you can do analysis, data analysis, coming up with those ideas, but it'll save you time to doing all the manual stuff. So I think I think from a leadership perspective, a woman perspective, I think we still have opportunities and there's still so much to do, and we should embrace it and see what it can do for us.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Or just if anything, just figure out how it can, you know, help you or like you the one thing that really kind of resonated with what you just said is like you seem very um adamant about people understanding their financials. And you know, AI will not do that. They will do it for you, but they will not explain it to you so much. Right. I want you to understand where your money's going.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

You're you're not wrong about that. I I have I didn't have it necessarily personally this tax season, but I had a lot of CPAs in a like a forum that were in talk about how their clients put their tax stuff into AI and walked into the tax office with the stuff from Chat GPT to say this is basically I should be getting a refund. And then the account's going, the CPA's like, okay, thank you. And then going through it and coming up with a completely different result and having to explain that to the client. And I think it's important, you know, I've been doing that for the last several years of I do an audio to go with my review to the client so that they're understanding as they're going through it. Oh, I love it. Why am I getting a refund that's, you know, $1,000 less than the prior year? And I think that that part of it, that transparency, that interaction, that conversation is very, very important. And I think, you know, in that regard, how do we interact then even when we're in the office, right? People are maybe still hybrid or remote or in the office. You know, I'm sure that's changed the game a bit as well on how you work with women in leadership, because we're still kind of dealing with that hybrid. Right. Yeah. You know, how and and a lot of the kids coming out of college are not necessarily in the office. They are working from home and they're not getting that dialogue. So do you see, you know, there are mistakes that can be made, women trying to become leaders. What are some of those mistakes that you're seeing more so now, I think, with our environment than maybe it was prior to COVID, you know, six years ago? Or is has it not changed?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Uh oh, I think it's changed because I think um, and I was really kind of hopeful with this whole work from home thing, because I would see people all the time have the task of raising children while trying to have a job. And you know, people would call in and just say, I it's a snow day and I can't come in. The person is perfectly healthy, they could totally work. But what if, what if crazy idea, I work from home, you know, and then I don't have to take a day off. I mean, so I was super excited about that, and I think it's starting to slip a little way from us in that um for whatever reason, people are like, no, I gotta be looking at you.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

I gotta make sure that you're I gotta see you physically and touch you.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I mean, you're not supposed to touch people, but like exactly. Um but it is it is all trust. It's all trust-based because I know for a fact that the people that had more liberties when I worked in corporate were the ones that that everybody trusted. That person will get that done. So I think we can still hang on to that if you become to that. But if you're new, you know, if you're new to a company, how do you improve that? So you might have to, you know, put in some time to then say, you know, maybe once in a while, I got a snow day, I got a sick kid, or or things like that. I I think if anything, that has helped women exponentially. I do remember hearing stories about where you know guys were the ones that wanted to really push going back to the office because they didn't want to be home, you know, and you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

My husband, though, he's been working from home for six years, and he still has to go into the office occasionally. He uh, you know, he's IT specialist, he works in the corporate world. He still has to go in, but he'd rather be home now. Because he's like I'm in comfortable clothes, and and if I have to be at a meeting, you know, he's wearing the top part is the dress t-shirt, whatever. And when he goes in, he's like, What am I gonna wear? I mean, granted, our kids were older when COVID hit. My my oldest was actually graduating high school in 2020, so that was a whole nother level. I had a small office two miles from my house. And I could have stayed at the office because it was just me, but then the kids were home. My husband was working, right? So great, it's the the woman coming home and having to take that charge of that.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

So I think I think that part had works to our advantage. However, if you had those smaller children and you're trying to get a leadership role, I mean, you gotta be in. People do need to see the leader, I think, more than the followers, if in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

And you know, you have to be out there and available and like I said, just leading the charge. So, you know, women have to kind of change their mindset as far as what is more important. And there's some that will say, you know, this is the time that I'm raising my children, so this is the most important. So I'm just gonna lay low. And then when they're in high school or something, I'm going to, you know, go full it or college or whatever, because it always seems like every year there's something else you want to be home for.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

But yes and no, I I agree with you. When I started, my kids were elementary school, uh, intermediate school. My youngest also has a rare migraine disease. So my decision to go out on my own was not just because you know, my kids are young and I want to, you know, be involved because I pretty much from the time my oldest was one still work, still did stuff. Um, but you're right, I still kind of took a step back. I didn't put myself out there until they got old enough that I could, you know, go to more networking events, go, and not that my husband hasn't been involved. It's just like that balance. And I think that's important for leaders too. And I think on some level, that's where we can make mistakes too, is learning that it's okay to balance and opening our mouth and saying it's okay to balance.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yes. And I I do think that uh for because of the way we're wired, women will take that weight on, you know, hard. They will, I mean, with with both hands. Um, I started my business, and then a year later I had my daughter, and uh from the get-go, she was like in daycare, and you know, we had we had to figure it out how it was gonna work. And I talked to other moms who are kind of in that same situation, and I think it, like I said, it's just a matter of how you are wired internally. For me, I knew I wanted to do this, and it was how does she weave into this plan of mine? And you know, for me, I was done at five. You know, I'm picking her up at five and I'm not showing up to work until eight. If something would come up, which I would very very rarely allow have happened, because I in my calendar, you know, no meetings after five. I mean, it's as simple as that. Or if it was a networking event, my husband could step in. I'm like, I gotta go to an event. So we had a nice little system going. So it is absolutely positively possible to be in leadership and have small children. But again, you know, the the whole COVID, now we can work on Zoom thing does help women still stay engaged. Because the one thing that I would run into often when I would place talent is women would come with a resume and say, Oh, these four years I wasn't working and um now I want to get a job again.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

And and I agree with that because right. I I mean, I we made the decision when we had our first son that I was going to be home for the full year, you know, taking care of him. That was just a choice. We we looked at our finances, we we did the analysis of daycare at that time, and we just felt for the first year, this is what we're gonna do. And so, yeah, there's like a year gap that I had. Now I was studying for my CPA license, like I still was doing things. That's the key, you know, and and still trying to stay involved. But I was also very blessed because when I wanted to get back into the tax world, I I did I had done all kinds of accounting. And when I ended up in the tax area, I fell in love with it. I know it's weird, right? Taxes, why would you fall in love with that? But it was just something that to me I could do. I found a local public accounting firm that allowed me to work two days a week in the office.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

And then just do whatever I needed to do for tax prep. I could take work home, things like that. And my son at that point went into daycare twice a week. And some of that was, again, analyzing it. And it is hard, right? Not every woman can do that, but I think we shouldn't shame or uh, you know, say to women, oh, you're you're a leader and you're doing this, and what about your kids? Like every woman has to make the choice for themselves. And it's hard, right? You know, it was hard because I was grasping the two worlds of stay-at-home mom and working and getting judgment from the the moms that were able to take their kids every day to to play groups and this and that. And I'm like, well, no, two days a week I'm working. And that was just our choice. And I think that's also something we need to tell women that if you leadership role or not, it's okay. You have to do what you have to do.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Right. And and that's a thing too that women have this comparison thing as well that men do not have. You know, men are men are like, you go for it, dude, and you get all the money and get all the whatever, and women start getting stigmatized by making you know choices like that. So I would always tell people, it's like, you know, this is you know, your choice, your choice. And for example, I know some people that have started a business and they have children, or they're in corporate and they have children and they have goals of their own while they're also being a mom. You know, the ones that do take that route can work themselves to a place where you know they have enough money to start trickling back down to the kids. They're gonna have a, you know, they're gonna have no college loans. They will have, you know, it better than buy college, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Have no loans or not. Both of our kids, some of it was more of a having skin in the game. So I want you to have loans kind of thing, right? But but yeah, it's but you're right. Having to put that money away.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

The more money you have, the more you can have 100%. And there are some instances too where if you're the woman in that relationship, then your career is going like gangbusters. You know, have a partner that is willing to help you shine too. Like, you know what, baby, you got this. And so I'm gonna step up. I'm gonna step up because you know, you're you're on fire right now, and then there could be that switches back, and then you have to then take out the other role too. So it's about also kind of building that team around you that wants to elevate you, delegating things that you're not good at or that you really hate doing, and then just make sure that you're always in that zone of genius that you're always in so you can keep going forward. Like I said, then you get to make more money, then maybe you can help your parents, you can help your kids, you can help, you know, everybody. Um, childcare doesn't it doesn't matter because you have the money for it. You know, um, so yeah, it's it's it's just a like a real change in mindset of how women should conduct. I agree. And like I said, it's a personal choice. I mean, that's that's of course, and it worked out pretty good. I suppose if it was miserable, then I would just Yeah, no, I I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

I I mean it it's hard and and you have to figure out that life balance. And and honestly, even if it's not just having kids in your life, like we're at a time the sandwich generation of of your elderly parents now. You could be dealing with that and and you're you're working and and leading, and and how do you manage all of that? That's kind of where I'm at, you know, sandwiched between parents and kids and and trying to figure all that out. What are some of the harsh truths or things that some women, you know, are doing or seeing that help them never get ahead? I mean, there are times I feel like I'm not ahead, right? I'm trying to get all these clients, I'm trying to build my business, you know, the workshops and all, I feel like I'm I'm trying to break through and then it's like something happens. But what are some harsh truths that you've come across that maybe women don't see it? And maybe if they now know about it, they can get past that.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

One of the things, one of the biggest culprits is women get caught up with the voices from their past or the ones that are around them in the present. So for me, I I started out, you know, just what we were just I'm not coverable, a wealthy family. I know a lot of people that have not. But for me, for example, I wanted to go to college and my parents would say, Well, why would you want to do that? You can get a great job at the factory, just like we did, and you know, you'll get lots of money. And and they were paid pretty well to for because they were there so long, but I never saw myself in that role. So I would have to first break through that. I'm not, I I need something else to break through that mindset. And then when you're in that mindset where you're starting to do well, you might have people around you that are like, oh, well, you I see you got a new car. I don't know how you can afford that. Or this house is pretty big. How do you have time to clean it? You know, so these are these little micro knockdowns that we get that say, you know, maybe, maybe this house is too big, or maybe I should have something smaller, maybe I shouldn't want as much because other people are telling you that. You have friends, for example, that you know, they're you're from like and I always I like to refer to this as like when you're trying to lose weight, and then your friends aren't really helping you do that because they still want to keep drinking and partying. Um hanging around those same sort of people in your career, maybe that they're they are only this big, and you're like, I I gotta break free from these voices because I want more than this. So then you have to really start hanging around with people that are at that level that you want to be at and start hearing what they're saying and getting into that sort of those conversations. But it's hard, right? It is hard because sometimes it's to leave people behind, I hate to say, especially the ones that um really are negative. I agree. I I yeah. I I you know, in my in my first marriage, um, and I see this with other women too, where he had to be the breadwinner, you know, and so therefore I could not make more money than him in his mind, or he would start getting, you know, a little uh condescending to me because oh, you think you're all that you're all bad because you're now making more than me, sort of thing. And I know a lot of women that don't want to change that dynamic of, you know, I can make more than my house. Husband because he's the breadwinner. He might be offended.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

And I think they're scared a little too, right? To be right. And and it's okay, right? It's okay to be scared.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

And it's not normal.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

It's not, you know, not to understand that. But I also think some of it is learning generationally from how your parents are, you know, I I I sit and I have conversations with my mom sometimes and she'll make comments like, oh, you know, because dad does that. I'm like, okay, but you're your own person. Right. You you can go do that. Like just because dad's doing this or whatever, you know, doesn't mean you can't do that. And I think you're right. I think the concept of making more money in men in general, right? Making more money than men in general, I think does set some like, how could you afford that? And and do that. And maybe it's changing that narrative of we need to have more conversations around money and not shame people and not guilt people. And you know, some of it's mental blocks, right? Some of it's that, oh, I have to get up, I have to do this. I, you know, yeah, yeah. You know, whatever. But it is, you're, I think you're right, that those mindsets and and leaving some of those people behind. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

It is, it is. Like I said, but yeah, am I still friend with everybody that I knew in grade school? Absolutely not. Because at that time, that was my posse. And then I had to like move on to a different group and then a different group and a different group. And it is harder the older you get, but there's always somebody at that next level that is willing to accept you into the group, which is also kind of nice. And the what and the true friends, the ones that are your cheerleaders that I always refer to, they will always stay. Because you know, they are like, you know, I'm gonna hang on to her because you know, I want to get some of her mojo or whatever. And you start can you could help raise them up too in some cases as well. But yeah, if there are people up for the ride, you start to um cut yourself short because you feel like you have to make other people happy. But if you're always looking at what is it that you want is always up front, and it's like you're either with me or you're against me. And I hope you like me when you see me as a CEO or as a VP versus you know, here in you know, the the steno pool.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Right. I mean you're right. And that's right, you know, and I think that makes somebody a good leader or or leading where they want to go, right? Because they're willing to having to get rid of the people or the dead weight or the the things that are bringing you down. And it's hard because it's not something that once you do it, it's always going to be off to the side. There's always constantly things that occur for that. But I think that helps with leadership skills because you're able to kind of move yourself forward and get over that hump and find a way. You know, a lot of, like you mentioned before, life coaching, a lot of different life coaching type of styles are coming out. I work with uh someone who's a CPA, but she's a life coach. She coaches accountants and CPAs. And, you know, we meet once a month and have these conversations with a group of women about the different things that we're doing. And, you know, imposter syndrome is a huge thing that has right. You know, what is it that you're seeing with that? And how do you help women kind of say, hey, you know, change that mindset?

SPEAKER_01 47:02

That is that is all those little voices in your head that keep going back. You know, like why, why, Miss Fancy Pants, would you want to do that? You know, you know you're not gonna do well or right.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Right. It's it's interesting. I've been doing the podcast now for three years. I am very excited. You know, it's something that to get this information out. And when I started, it was kind of like I started actually with a group of 10 other women. We had won a contest through iHeart, and it was really cool. 10 up-and-coming women podcasters, and I've been doing it for three years now, and I think I'm the only one still doing it.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

So we were with iHeart for about a year, year and a half, and then we they, you know, didn't renew the contracts, didn't, which was fine. You know, you want to become an independent podcaster, and I have, and I've done it because I still have a voice, and I feel like that's my leadership in that regard to helping women and small businesses. But yeah, I still get that imposter syndrome, I still get that like the little voices in my head. And, you know, you see this CPA doing this, this, and this, and you're trying to do that, and and look, you're not getting anywhere. And then I have to take that step back and go, well, wait a minute, they're in a different market, they're in a different area. They might offer things a little differently than I do. You know, they don't have this or I have that. Like, yeah, it's a constant battle.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

It is, and it's really kind of honing in too on what your real passion is too. Because honestly, if it doesn't, you know, bring you mega millions, if you're always working in that space, you're so happy too. And then I also truly believe if you're that passionate about some things as well, but they do start becoming lucrative after a while because there's no other choice because it has to grow and it has to be bigger. And like for you, I mean, you you could hold up like Brene Brown as some sort of an icon as far as you know, that's what I want to do. There's nothing wrong with walking towards that goal. I mean, you probably won't be a Brene Brown. I mean, I remember my icon at the beginning was like a Martha Stewart who had like an empire. It's like I'm not gonna have that empire, but if I follow some of the steps that she took, I'm like, he's gonna be a lot better off than I am right now. Um, but it it involves having a little bit of bravery and faith in yourself and tapping down that imposter syndrome, which, like I said, I I talk about that a little bit in that we have essentially like four voices in our brains, and the one that brings out that imposter syndrome is the one that always wants us to be careful. And that's the same voice that tells us not to keep dating that same guy. You know, it's like you ever dated that you know, bike works like a rider before, and what happened last time, or you know, the guy that never calls you back or whatever, and then warns you about that, but it will also keep you from doing things too, and like you know, you're you're not big enough for this room, or you're not you shouldn't go over and talk to that person, or they're not gonna want to talk to you. Once you start tuning into some of your other voices, the driven voices, for example, you're like, I'm just gonna walk over there and I'm gonna introduce myself. And what's the worst that can happen? Nothing. Nothing, nothing right that you're right.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

What's the worst that can happen? But you bring up a great point, and I think as being a leader, I think if it brings you joy and you're happy about this and you you don't walk in that room and go, Oh, I gotta do this again, like you are in your happy place, other things will fall into place. Absolutely, other things will fall into line, and you just sometimes the journey is gonna be a lot longer for you than maybe for somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

But if it brings you joy and you're happy, you know, I think you can continue to do it to you and they'll they'll see your energy and they'll want to be a part of it, and that's how it starts just rolling and rolling and rolling into something that's really kind of cool. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I love that. This has been so awesome talking about leadership and having you on here. Thank you. Is there any last minute uh insight or tip or thing you'd like to share with my listeners about being leaders and stepping into the room? There's here's my book.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

It's orange. Yes, I love that. Um, yeah, the rules of the game for women in business has all of this and more. But the one thing I I would probably leave as just kind of a sound bite is you know, you only have one life. What do you want it to be? And if your dream, your dream is to serve others and always live in poverty, then you know what? God bless you. Yeah, I agree. Listen, but if you want a little more and you are fully capable of it, just really figure out what it is that you're really, really good at and keep going towards that. I know some people get really stuck and maybe in just like these, uh like these low-rung jobs, and like I'll never be able to break out of it. But just keep looking. What else, yeah, what else can I be doing? Could I be a manager of the store? Could I, you know, now that I have all this experience, can I apply it to here? So keep that fear kind of as a moving target all the time just to say I've learned something. Now what else can I do? And that's how it starts piling on. And then next thing you know, you you know a whole lot more than you did the day before.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

I agree, I agree. So, Catherine, where can we find you? And do you have any other calls to action?

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Uh, my website is KatherineLangKlein.com. My book is available on all the places, you know, Bars and Noble, Amazon, a few other bookstores around. And um, yeah, that's that's how to get a hold of me. I'm allowed to there. And I'll have all that in a little bio. Definitely click in at LinkedIn. I I post a lot of things there. Wonderful. Love to connect with people there too.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Wonderful. And I'll have all your links and all that information in the little description for the podcast for the listeners to have. But thank you, Catherine, so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

This has been a very joyful experience.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Thank you. I'm excited. Wonderful. Follow, like, and subscribe to your financial maven wherever you listen to your podcasts. And make sure that you leave your money stories or questions for me at www.yourfinancialmavenpodcast.com. I cannot wait to hear what you have to say about money. The purpose of this podcast is to provide general information on the subjects discussed. It is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. It is not meant to resolve your specific financial needs or situations. Please consult with your CPA, tax, or financial professionals. Your financial Maven is hosted and produced by Samantha M. Besnov, CPA, and your Financial Maven LLC. Editing is done by Chris Darnock of KMZen Creative. Music is written, composed, and performed by Daniel Shore.